^{NB: The English subtitle of the podcast is available. In case you do not see it, please activate the subtitle icon on the right side of the video.}

Welcome to the Dialogue Migration Podcast. From Dakar to Goma, via Conakry, Nouakchott, Cotonou, Ouagadougou and Niamey; We will recall the one thousand and one facets of migration. This podcast is presented by Laetitia Kasongo from the city of Goma in teh Democratic Republic of Congo.

Today, we are hosting Rodriguez Katsuva. He is a journalist and co-founder of Congo Check. He studied in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and in Europe. But he chose to return home to start something, thanks to migration.

Rodriguez Katsuva, Good morning.

Rodriguez Katsuva: Hello dear journalist, I am Rodriguez Katsuva, journalist, co-founder of Congo Check, which is a fact-checking media in the DRC. I hold a Master’s degree in Management of Media from the Lille Public School of Journalism in France. I live between the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Rwanda, Belgium and France. 

Laetitia Kasongo: Why did you leave the city of Beni after your high school education?

Rodriguez Katsuva: I left the city of Beni because I first wanted to find a school to study medicine. So, I went to Bukavu (Editor’s note: a city of the DRC located on the southwest shores of Lake Kivu and capital city of the South Kivu province). However, I very quickly wanted to change direction because while in Beni, I was working as a show host. It made me want to do journalism. I liked the mic.

I started working in radio between 2009-2010. It was easy for me because I already spoke “French” very well at the time and I was already writing very well. That’s because I also loved reading, and that’s what opened the doors of radio for me. Even though I wanted to continue medicine, journalism was already in me. This is how I had to leave the city of Beni having acquired experience in radio. And so, I wanted to continue studying medicine, but I had to stop very quickly to refocus on journalism.

Laetitia Kasongo: Mr. Rodriguez Katsuva, tell me how and why you went to Europe?

Rodriguez Katsuva: I worked as a communication specialist in an American NGO. I was invited for an internship in Paris, and I agreed to resign, to leave a comfortable salary, at the time I earned a salary of around 2,100 dollars. I left all that for a two-month unpaid internship at Radio France Internationale in Paris because I missed radio. Communication is very different from journalism. Even if there are many similarities, the rules are not the same, the freedoms are not the same in journalism as in communication. So, I still wanted to get back into journalism. And that’s when I resigned to go to Paris. I did my internship, and I signed up for my Master’s degree there, that’s how I went to Europe.

But the first opportunity to travel to Europe before RFI’s internship was during the French-speaking media innovation prize that we won with Habari-RDC, a bloggers’ platform. And I was an editor, so as such, I had participated in the dossier we had submitted for the prize, I was invited to Paris to receive the prize. That’s how I got to France for the first time. It was for a few days, but I told myself, I’m going to take the opportunity to make contacts, so I can come back. That’s how I met Cécile Mégie, who is also the CEO of RFI. She explained to me the process of putting up an application for an internship with RFI. I did it all. I started producing programmess, columns for RFI for free while in Congo. And that’s how I was invited three months later to do an internship in Paris with the editorial staff of RFI. That’s how I went to Europe.

Laetitia Kasongo: Why did you choose to return home?

Rodriguez Katsuva: The country has never left me. I arrived in Europe; I quickly realized that it was not an Eldorado as it was sold to us.

The fact is that the profession of journalism is very precarious in France. You have to know that. I know of high-profile journalists, people for whom I have a lot of respect but who earn minimum wage. That’s it, it’s a very precarious job in France. But going to France allowed me to study and have a lot of experiences that I might not have had on the continent. And above all, a certain notoriety in the area of global journalism. It really opened a lot of doors for me. The training in France, the experience with Radio France International, all this on my CV gave me value. And, above all, I also to realize that everything was possible.

Even before leaving, I had already launched Congo Check, which was the first fact-checking media in the Democratic Republic of Congo but also in Central Africa region and the first in French-speaking Africa recognized by the international network of fact checkers.

So I came back to the country to share what I learned there. With my two collaborators, we each made a contribution to invest in the country. Today, we are a media group with a television and two radio stations, a website and a center for advanced journalism. We are happy to be able to do things at home, and we continue to have links with countries abroad, mainly France.

Laetitia Kasongo: Rodrigue, can you explain what migration has brought you professionally and personally?

Rodrigue Katsuva: First in France, I understood that if I wanted to do something it should be in my country. And that I should take advantage of all the opportunities found in France to try to replicate them at home. It was not just a question of living in France and taking advantage of the French system; but rather to learn and benefit from this openness that Paris has given me. My stay allowed me to be very open with people and to forge some partnerships that continue to bring us many things today. 

On a personal level, it was just to realize that France is good, but that’s not what I want.

I want to enjoy all the doors that France has opened for me; but also to bring things to my country and to France as well.

Why not? So I don’t want to go and charge the French social system; But I will take the opportunity to create wealth for myself, to pay my taxes in France and to start as an entrepreneur in France, but above all with a focus and a look at my country. I saw all the things I could do, how empty my country still is, and that there were many areas to exploit.

I understood that if I wanted to make a living as an eldest and since I now have almost five children, it would not be with France. France would have to allow me to open other doors. So I can go and knock on the doors of some companies, NGOs, funds, directly anywhere in Europe; but knowing that my base remains in Congo.

Laetitia Kasongo: Can we say that migration has positive points, given your experience?

Rodriguez Katsuva: Immigration always has positives. When we say that “traveling is the greatest book in the world”, it is true. It is always interesting to meet other cultures, people who think differently and have different stories than ours. 

This awareness, knowing that we are not alone but that we are part of a greater whole. It’s really a great experience.

My trips in France, the Central African Republic and the other countries where I worked have brought me many things on a personal level. And as soon as you win on a personal level, you also win on a professional level.

Thanks to France for example, there are many journalists who will now travel between the DRC and France for trainings and come back to train people here.

Fact-checking is being extended to Burundi, Rwanda, Chad, Angola, Gabon and several other Central African countries, both French-speaking and Portuguese-speaking. This is possible thanks to the experiences we have acquired, whether it is me, or my colleagues from Congo Check.

Emigration has brought me a lot… And I hope to bring a lot to all the countries that have embraced it: France, Central African Republic, Equatorial Guinea, Chad, Ghana, … I have been to several countries and I cannot name them all. All these countries have brought many things to me.

Rwanda was the first country where I decided to settle in 2015 with my colleagues. We started to have more opportunities living in Rwanda because we had access to cheaper internet, security and electricity. And that’s part of the benefits of emigration. So it started in Rwanda and not just in France.

Laetitia Kasongo: What have Chad, Belgium, France and the Central African Republic, among others, brought you in your career?

Rodriguez Katsuva: In Chad, we helped launch a fact-checking site. I was in Equatorial Guinea for a report of the African Development Bank (AfDB) and it allowed me to open some networks and understand many things about the continent. It has also facilitated some partnerships with other media. In the Central African Republic, I stayed for a year to train local journalists on fact checking. Today, fact-checking is evolving there with the Franco-Russian war of influence in the country.

I am proud to have been at the forefront of the fight against manipulation of any kind. Russian manipulation mainly because they are more into propaganda. But there are also Western chancelleries. Sometimes they withhold certain information or are reluctant to provide certain clarifications. All this has allowed me to have another look at myself, the job and everything that is to be done on the African continent.

Laetitia Kasongo: How did you experience the instability in certain parts of the country like North Kivu and how did it affect your life more or less?

Rodriguez Katsuva: I am from this region. I was born there and that’s where I grew up. I remember Beni because I spent the last two years of high school there. So, we walked around late in the night; we regularly visited a small nightclub owned by a friend called Mukendi.

We were often there until 11 p.m. chatting. That’s where the most original CDs in the whole city of Beni were sold. We feared nothing. We walked home without any worries. Something we can no longer do today. Even in the city center of Beni, attacks can take place. Even more recently, during Christmas eve, there were attacks in the busiest supermarket of the city.

So, it kind of destroyed those memories, that image of Beni that I had and that I still carried in me. And it’s very sad.

This also influenced my career a little bit because if we got into fact-checking, it is because of the massacres in Beni that began in late 2013 or early 2014.

People wondered why the international community remained silent about the murders and killings that took place in Beni.

Some netizens, in an effort to attract the attention of the international community, posted images of people being cut with machetes, dead people, coffins or bodies torn into pieces. Unfortunately, these images often came from other countries such as Zambia, Cameroon,…

We thought it was a danger. We want to sensitize the international community to take an interest in the question of Beni. At the same time, we use photos that come from elsewhere. The international community might well see these photos and say it’s in Cameroon. So, what is said about Beni is not true. There is not as much massacre as it is portrayed.

Thus, we started to raise awareness to tell them that it is good to share true images of Beni, the real situation in Beni.

Then there was Ebola which was added to this particular condition of Beni. And there have been many rumors and in our country misinformation literally kills. Because of the rumors, expatriate doctors in the country started to be attacked and it was said that they came to steal the organs of people who died of Ebola and that Ebola was nonexistent and that all this was created to kill black people. There were politicians who have taken advantage of the situation to spread false information.

It made a big mix. And we, as professionals, wanted to tackle the rumors. This insecurity and instability has affected us professionally and personally. It’s the same in the Rutshuru located 69 km out of Goma, we traveled when we wanted. But now, we can no longer do it.

Laetitia Kasongo: As a journalist, what experience do you have in the treatment of information related to the consequences of the conflict in certain parts of the country and specifically among the displaced?

Rodriguez Katsuva: Unfortunately, what I can say is that on the one hand, there is no treatment that is fair or that comes close to neutrality.

Foreign media (RFI, France 24, Le Monde, BBC, …), want certain images or videos from their correspondents and do not highlight the other narrative. And the state media in the DRC want to flatter political leaders.

So we have two opposites. On the one hand, it’s the law of the dead mile- As long as it’s not sensational with people starving to death in IDP camps, the foreign media is not going to come and take them.

On the other hand, the government will try to hide some truths. So we have a biased treatment and we do not have the reality of the facts. It is this dichotomous treatment that I deplore.

Laetitia Kasongo: Ladies and gentlemen, we have come to the end of this first issue of the Dialogue Migration Podcast. Thank you for listening to us. Until next time, bye!