Our guest of the day has a rich and winding background. From his first posts in 2000, Makaila Nguebla, a Chadian journalist and blogger, incurred the wrath of the regime of Idriss Déby senior, who ruled Chad from 1990 to 2021.

He then went into exile in Senegal, in the country of Teranga; he became a correspondent for two Chadian media and even ended up creating his blog in 2007. His objective was twofold: to denounce the situation of human rights and press freedom in Chad, while ensuring an editorial autonomy. He succeeded, until his situation deteriorated again in 2013. He returned to exile.

Today, Nguebla has been a Human Rights Advisor in Chad since March 2022. During his recent courtesy visit to the headquarters of AfricTivistes in Dakar, Dialogue Migration took the opportunity to meet for you this Chadian pen who experienced migration, expulsion and exile before returning to his country.

The rest is he who tells us.

Dialogue Migration: One could almost say that exile is in your DNA. At the age of 9, you were forced to flee with your family to Cameroon during the N’Djamena war (1979-1980). Once again in 2013, can you look back on the vicissitudes of your last exile?

Makaila Nguebla: My story is indeed linked to my democratic struggle for human rights, freedom, alternation and good governance. This led me to be deported from Dakar to Conakry in 2013.

It took citizen mobilization at the level of Senegal and the sub-region for my cause to be heard and defended internationally. And that’s what allowed me to get a visa for France in 2013, after my expulsion from Dakar. In France, I continued to mobilize on the same struggles, including advocacy on the issue of Chad, by participating in meetings and debates.

In 2015 in Dakar (Senegal), I participated in the official launch of the AfricTivistes movement. It was to preach the cause of the Chadian people who aspire to peace and stability. It was when Idriss Déby died in 2021 that I was called upon to return to my country of origin so that I could continue to be a force of proposal, contribute to the stability of the country, to the continuity of the institutions, but above all to a true democracy in Chad.

When did your activism earn you the wrath of the Chadian government?

It was precisely between 2000 and 2005 that I began to write articles in the press, including Jeune Afrique. They were small notes to tell the international community that Chad had put a lock on democracy. There was an absence of democracy, of free and transparent presidential elections. So, in 2005 I was deported from Tunis to Dakar. And in Dakar, I was successively online media correspondent. I reorganized myself and created a blog on Chadian news. At the same time host a radio show in Manoré FM (Community Radio in Dakar, Senegal Editor’s note) that gives the floor to refugees “The refugee bench.”  This is this program that allows migrants, refugees and asylum seekers in Senegal and resource persons members of Senegalese civil society to speak, not only to denounce the non-respect of the right of asylum in Senegal, but also to challenge the Senegalese authorities to do better in terms of protecting the right of asylum of people who are on Senegalese soil.

I continued this activity in Senegal until my expulsion in 2013. I was deprived of my passport from Chad. I had no identity card or refugee status in Senegal. I was practically stateless.

And when did you return to Senegal?

I returned in 2015, two years after my expulsion. I was the official guest of the launch of the organization AfricTivistes to testify about my journey, because it should be noted that the idea of setting up AfricTivists was born from my expulsion in 2013.

Cheikh Fall (editor’s note: president of AfricTivistes) and other friends thought it was necessary to have a league that federates African activists to defend their causes. That’s how we launched the movement and so I came back to Senegal and, but also to thank all my Senegalese and African supporters.

In 2022, you were appointed Human Rights Advisor in Chad. How do you describe the human rights situation in your country and in Africa in general?

The human rights situation in general on the continent remains worrying. Given that when you see West Africa, with Mali, Burkina Faso, Guinea sinks into a sorry situation. Nor am I excluding Senegal because there are journalists who have been arbitrarily arrested and detained. This is problematic in terms of respect for human rights on the African continent.

But as far as Chad is concerned, our mission is to ensure respect for human rights in our country. It is true that we are in a country in political transition and that things are not so rosy. There are certainly delays on the issue of human rights, but there is a particular attention paid by the Head of Stateto this situation. 

At our level, we have made many proposals to him to improve the human rights situation in Chad. The proof is that he agreed to organize in N’djamena, the National Forum of Human Rights which brought together human rights defenders, activists, which, at the time of Idriss Déby, did not have a space of expression. This meeting made it possible to take stock of the human rights situation in Chad, but also to propose alternatives.

We also organized the Inclusive and Sovereign National Dialogue during which the Rights and Freedoms Commission was led by law enforcement and journalists.

So, we cannot say that the situation is completely healthy, but there are efforts to be made and challenges to be met and we are also aware that the Head of Stateis also aware. As proof, he accepted that Chad should join the Conference of Bars, which brings together Chadian lawyers and which has brought in French and African lawyers to discuss the profession of lawyer and also to take important actions for the release of the demonstrators of the events of October 20, 2022.

The presidential pardon was granted thanks to the proposals we made to him to reassure the national and international community. We think that we are listened to by the Head of Statewho also really wants to try this human rights situation, because we cannot transgress human rights and talk about democracy in a country today.

Human rights are really one of the important pillars as well as democracy, freedom of expression and freedom of the press if we want a democratic development.

There are opponents who have gone into exile, but we talk more about the case of Masra Success. What about other opponents?

The situation of opponents in Chad is certainly worrying. And Success Masra is one of the figures of this opposition. Others escaped, but the outstretched hand of the Head of Statewas always directed towards the latter because he made a call for dialogue to all the opponents who came out, including the armed opponents. There is no reason why the people who are authors or not of the October 22 movement should go into exile.

We have defined the latter as moral repression and therefore these people must accept the outstretched hand of the Head of Statebecause their security can be guaranteed within the country. Also, the call of the Head of Statemust be respected. We are here to ensure that the word of the transitional president is respected and that no one is excluded from his country or arbitrarily arrested. That is why we believe that all the sons of the country really need to come together to talk about democracy and to find peaceful solutions to the ills that have been ruining Chad for sixty years.

We have seen heads of state calling their opponents to dialogue. But isn’t this just a political strategy? Do you think Chadian opponents should respond?

The Head of State said that all the sons of Chad cannot remain in exile forever while being in exile reduces the margins for action inside the country. Remaining in exile is out of the question. The fight is being fought inside the country. Like the rest of us, we have been in exile. For years, I was in Senegal, France and Guinea, but I am currently in Chad to lead this fight alongside the Head of State, to raise awareness on respect for human rights and freedom of expression and especially for a democratic anchoring and political maturity.

You were one of the opponents of Marshal Idriss Deby, which led to your exile at one point. Currently, you are the special advisor to his son, isn’t that contradictory?

This is not contradictory, given that the page Déby (editor’s note: father) has been turned.

Yes, but it is his son who now ensures the succession, a kind of continuity.

Precisely the son did not want to seize power. His father died. Chadian army officers thought he was consensual within the military hierarchy. So when he took power, he first called for dialogue with the internal democratic opposition. Afterwards, he reached out to the diaspora. And for us, in fact, the rule says that if your enemy reaches out to you, for dialogue, you must respond. Out of respect for him, but also for our friends who supported us, we wanted to respond to this call from the outstretched hand of the Head of State. We wanted to take him at his word, by being inside the country.

We are not in contradiction with ourselves because dialogue with the son is part of a transition. We believe that our presence next to the Head of State can help him to improve the situation of human rights, freedoms and above all democracy in our country. So there is no contradiction.

If Marshal Idriss Déby Itno had shown good faith, like his son now, we would be here to help him too. But at the time, Déby did not offer the opposition the opportunity to express itself, to respond to its calls. He wanted to talk to the opposition from within, but not to the diaspora.

What actions have been taken that prove the good faith of the current President?

His good faith is materialized by a peace agreement signed between the armed opposition composed of rebel groups opposed to the regime of Déby Senior since 2003 and who have repeatedly tried to overthrow the power of N’djamena, (in 2006, 2008 and 2019). They met in Doha, Qatar and signed the peace agreement to renounce armed struggle.

The second strong act was the fact that he released prisoners, including rebels who may or may not have caused the death of his late father. The third act is the outstretched hand to the Chadian diaspora in exile. There are people who have been in exile for 40 or even 50 years and who were only able to see Chad again under the presidency of Mahamat Idriss Déby.

These acts reassure us. There is no concern. We are here, we are fighting democratically. We give our ideas about what is happening. We salute everything that is well done, but we do not hesitate to denounce what is not well done.

Our mission is to uphold the universal values of human rights, freedom, democracy and good governance.

So, can we say that there is good hope for an improvement human rights?

Precisely, our presence in Dakar was also to draw inspiration from Senegalese experiences in the field of human rights. Senegal is a great democratic country, a country with a culture of human rights. So, we are here to draw inspiration from these values in order to popularize them in Chad. We hope that this can help Chad to be a country that respects human rights.

Do you think that holding a constitutional referendum is a panacea for Chad’s democratic problems?

It was the wish of the participants in the national dialogue that the people be called upon to express themselves on a unitary, decentralized or federal country. We think that’s everybody’s concern. If Chadians believe that the federation is appropriate for national unity and for the country, why not. But most of our compatriots really want there to be a unitary state that everyone will identify with justice and equality.

I think it is out of the question to opt for the federation since the federation has not been and still is not a solution. You have the case of Nigeria with its social disparities between rich and poor areas. In view of all this, the position of the critics is incomprehensible because this referendum is an emanation of the national dialogue that leads us to report.

Senegal fell 31 places in the latest  Reporters without Borders press freedom index. How do you read this situation?

Senegal is a democratic country, respectful of universal values, a country of political alternation. But we who are from abroad follow with particular attention the incessant arrests of journalists who are imprisoned for speaking and then in relation to the writings on subjects that are supposed to be sensitive. And this situation does not look a bit like the Senegal we know and like and it is a terrible regression. Today, Reporters without Borders (RWB) classifies states according to whether or not they respect press freedom. This gap of 31 places is worrying because RWB is an informed and serious observer.  And this is due to the fact that there have been actions taken by the power in place that have not allowed RWB and other institutions to better judge Senegal. Now, this situation worries us because it is absolutely necessary that Senegal really regains its historic place as a democratic country with a political maturity with the value that we recognize it. But if this situation persists, we fear that it could put the country in an extremely worrying situation. Both sides need to pull themselves together. Both the opposition and the government must give priority to the general interest of the Senegalese people and because it is one of the most stable countries in West Africa. If it falters, it is extremely dangerous for the sub-region and for the African continent.

In your opinion, what are the main challenges that are facing journalists and human rights defenders in Africa?

Human rights defenders and journalists in general face challenges related to social insecurity. They do not have sufficient means; they have a limited space for expression. There is also censorship in countries with persecuting powers, liberticidal regimes that do not accept contradictory voices. As long as these shortcomings persist, they do not allow a real development of journalism and human rights defenders in Africa.

Journalists and human rights defenders must be provided with adequate resources to enable them to play this role as actors in development. And here, I call on international partners, including the European Union (EU) and the United Nations (UN), to allocate resources to the media so that they can do their job optimally. But it is also necessary to guarantee security and protection to the journalists and defenders of human rights to enable them to play their full role of informing the public, which unfortunately suffers in particular from poor governance and the non-respect of their rights.

What is your reading of President Macky Sall’s desire to run for a third term?

Officially, President Macky Sall has not commented on his candidacy. He may change his mind in the coming days or months. But given the mobilization in Senegal of the opposition, the general mobilization and the attention of the international community, let us hope that he can change his decision at the last minute. But the signals he sends worry Senegalese observers and African observers in general.

In 2012; Mr. Macky Sall was one of those leaders of the Senegalese opposition who fiercely opposed the mandate of Abdoulaye Wade (editor’s note: Wade’s third successive candidacy ended in failure) which propelled him to the front of the stage. There was a coalition around him that made him the president of Senegal. He must not give up and respect the word given. And as he took action in 2012, I think we are still 8 months away from the presidential election, that his entourage advises him so that he recovers. There is a future after power.

The proof, Mahamadou Issoufou, former president of Niger, who gave way to the current president, was recently awarded the Mo Ibrahim Foundation Prize in Nairobi (Kenya). And we call on all international organizations to mobilize for Senegal so that alternation is done through the ballot box and that the option of violence is totally ruled out because we do not want Senegal to fall into this cycle. Because it is the only, the only country in West Africa and French-speaking Africa that is the most stable and that is really a desired development model and to which we are really attached.

We also have the opportunity to appeal to the President of the Republic, Macky Sall, to give stability, peace, good governance and, above all, national unity for the Senegalese people.

Did you expect this strong mobilization of Senegalese youth against this third candidacy?

Yes, I expected that because I remember very well, in 2012, the M23 movement launched by Mr. Alioune Tine and other living forces of Senegal had conquered Dakar. And in 2023, we are closely monitoring what is happening through the media and social networks. And the mobilization of the Senegalese youth that is awake, determined and mature is also linked to its history. And so it can surprise if the power ever persists. These young people facing difficulties related to unemployment and poor governance often feel excluded.

Certainly, much has been achieved in terms of infrastructure in the country but the democratic challenges are immense.

Beyond the particular case of Senegal, what is your analysis in relation to the phenomenon of too many mandates in Africa?

Too many requests are often the source of political conflicts, armed conflicts. We do not want this to happen in Senegal. We recently had the DRC under Joseph Kabila, which sparked a general mobilization of civil society.

In Gabon too, there was Ali Bongo with his controversial election in 2016. In West Africa, we saw Mali. IBK’s obsession with staying in power led to his departure from power; to cite only these cases.

So we think that the challenge has come for African leaders to develop a culture of alternation because bowing to power can often be a source of political conflict that can undermine national stability. Those who want to perpetuate themselves in power think they are indispensable; while no one is indispensable.